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 Post subject: Re: Next Problem to be Cracked: Tip-In (Accelerator) Enrich
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:48 am 
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Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 9:49 pm
Posts: 5659
Location: Canada eh!
I've edited my post and the flow chart above.
viewtopic.php?t=1735&start=48
Latency is added to the TIE but only in the final stage right before firing the injector.


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 Post subject: Re: Next Problem to be Cracked: Tip-In (Accelerator) Enrich
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:19 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:47 am
Posts: 38
greyhairhoon wrote:
Well Dshultz,

It makes so much sense to increase tipin when you have increased air flow. So I put my tipin scale back to stock for 440cc injectors then upped it 30%, roughty the difference of new 565cc injectors, flashed map and tested, flat spot 95% gone, upped tipin another 10%, flashed and tested. Brilliant, no flat spot, the car is so much better in traffic, on off accelerator etc. It revs freely from idle now with no flat spot at all. All this time I couldnt get rid of that flat spot because I was reducing tipin as per what is the accepted way. Ive been pulling out whats left of my hair trying to solve this flat spot for over a year.
I have similar mods to your car deshultz and have increased the airflow heaps over stock as well.
Thanks again Dshultz.



Wouldn't this guy be running way too much tip-in at this point?

It is my understanding that we are supposed to reduce tip-in when using larger injectors, to compensate for the increase flow, and then added some for increased breathing capacity. Correct?

So he should have decreased by 30%, and then added some from there? Since no one ever corrected him, I just want to double check to make sure I have been doing this right.....


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 Post subject: Re: Next Problem to be Cracked: Tip-In (Accelerator) Enrich
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:03 pm 
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Location: Canada eh!
If you change nothing but injectors then reduce tip-in by the appropriate %.

BUT, if you're changing injectors because you have changed the air flow through the engine (intake/exhaust/AVCS, etc, etc), it's not as straight forward anymore.

In the end, make your adjustments and then validate them with a WBO2.


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 Post subject: Re: Next Problem to be Cracked: Tip-In (Accelerator) Enrich
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:30 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:04 pm
Posts: 2140
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Can anyone take a look at this log and help explain why under very light tip-in my AF goes lean? My min tip-in throttle % is 1.6, same as stock. The throttle is changing so gently, I don't see why the AF should be like this. Stock 2.0L WRX throttle body. Fuel map is tuned perfectly in these cells because steady state is fine.

Code:
Time   A/F Correction #1 (Direct)* (%)   A/F Sensor #1 (Direct)* (AFR)   Engine Speed (rpm)   Fuel Injector #1 Pulse Width (Direct)* (ms)   Manifold Absolute Pressure (Direct)* (psi absolute)   Throttle Opening Angle (%)   Tip-in Throttle* (%)
46:08.9   -0.77   14.62   2514   1.152   6.63   7.45   0
46:08.9   -0.92   14.62   2514   1.16   6.59   7.45   0
46:09.0   -0.9   14.62   2522   1.16   6.65   7.45   0
46:09.0   -0.17   14.78   2527   1.168   6.65   7.45   0
46:09.1   0.07   14.82   2527   1.168   6.63   7.45   0
46:09.1   -0.31   14.73   2541   1.168   6.65   7.45   0
46:09.2   -0.6   14.66   2525   1.16   6.65   7.45   0
46:09.2   -1.16   14.52   2489   1.144   6.65   7.45   0
46:09.3   -1.11   14.51   2489   1.16   6.65   7.45   0
46:09.3   -1.56   14.4   2555   1.152   6.65   7.45   0
46:09.4   -1.35   14.48   2526   1.152   6.67   7.84   0
46:09.4   -0.9   14.62   2508   1.184   6.86   9.41   0.6
46:09.4   -1.23   14.55   2508   1.34   7.43   11.37   0
46:09.5   -2.01   14.38   2533   1.468   8.16   12.16   0.6
46:09.5   -1.38   14.59   2502   1.672   8.84   12.94   0
46:09.6   -1.65   14.52   2557   1.768   9.38   13.73   0.6
46:09.6   0.38   15.03   2557   1.912   9.94   14.51   0
46:09.7   5.83   16.29   2534   2.156   10.44   14.9   0
46:09.7   8.25   16.68   2534   2.26   10.69   14.9   0
46:09.8   10.79   17.09   2534   2.292   10.85   14.9   0
46:09.8   12.92   17.3   2515   2.384   11   14.9   0
46:09.9   13.78   17.06   2557   2.464   11.06   14.9   0
46:09.9   14.12   16.71   2538   2.464   11.12   15.29   0
46:10.0   14.78   16.44   2538   2.512   11.2   15.29   0
46:10.0   15.11   16.09   2534   2.52   11.29   15.29   0
46:10.1   14.29   15.55   2543   2.508   11.31   15.29   0
46:10.1   13.54   15.13   2554   2.508   11.41   15.69   0
46:10.2   13.33   14.92   2554   2.5   11.43   15.69   0.6
46:10.2   13.15   14.75   2563   2.508   11.47   15.69   0
46:10.3   13.16   14.68   2568   2.524   11.52   15.69   0
46:10.3   13   14.62   2568   2.516   11.56   15.69   0
46:10.4   12.56   14.52   2544   2.532   11.62   15.69   0
46:10.4   11.96   14.39   2543   2.532   11.66   15.69   0
46:10.5   11.02   14.2   2573   2.508   11.66   15.69   0
46:10.5   10.57   14.14   2573   2.516   11.7   15.69   0
46:10.6   9.41   13.94   2571   2.484   11.72   16.08   0
46:10.6   9.33   14.02   2580   2.484   11.76   16.08   0
46:10.7   8.86   14.02   2566   2.492   11.78   16.08   0
46:10.7   8.83   14.12   2566   2.484   11.81   16.08   0
46:10.8   7.23   13.87   2571   2.468   11.81   16.08   0
46:10.8   7.48   14.06   2585   2.468   11.83   16.08   0
46:10.9   6.77   14.03   2586   2.468   11.87   16.08   0
46:10.9   6.1   13.96   2586   2.46   11.89   16.08   0
46:10.9   5.94   14.06   2592   2.472   11.93   16.47   -0.6
46:11.0   5.75   14.12   2579   2.472   11.93   16.47   -0.6
46:11.0   5.42   14.13   2579   2.472   11.97   16.47   0
46:11.1   4.08   13.9   2587   2.448   11.99   16.47   0



Attachments:
romraiderlog_20130614_084600.csv [3.91 KiB]
Downloaded 86 times

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 Post subject: Re: Next Problem to be Cracked: Tip-In (Accelerator) Enrich
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:47 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:46 am
Posts: 84
I was having the same issue with 1%-3% delta Throttle Opening Angle. However it only went to high 15s AFR. I followed some of the ideas in this thread and increased tip in for the delta Throttle Opening Angle where it was lean. It helped enrich the AFR.

I have a 73mm KS Tech intake and ID1000 injectors.

Looking at your log, it goes lean with a 2%-3% delta throttle opening angle. Try adding some additional injector pulsewidth from 1%-3% throttle change.


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 Post subject: Re: Next Problem to be Cracked: Tip-In (Accelerator) Enrich
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:43 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:04 pm
Posts: 2140
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
What's weird is the tip-in calcs aren't even supposed to have an effect if tip-in delta is less than 1.6%... That's the theory anyway, but in practice it does seem to have an effect. Or should we just ignore the logged value and manually look at the dTPS/dT?

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 Post subject: Re: Next Problem to be Cracked: Tip-In (Accelerator) Enrich
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:19 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:46 am
Posts: 84
My activation is at 1% which is the OEM value.

I'm taking a guess here. Your activation is at 1.6%. That may be part of the reason for leaning out. Tip in enrichment should start earlier. Try some experiments. Decrease activation to 1%. Check if it helps.

Also try activation at 1% and increase Tip In additional injector PW by 10%, for dT(delta throttle opening change) of 1% - 3%. Check if that has an effect and adjust from there.

On mine, the increase was 5% to 7% more PW because it didn't lean out as much as yours.

I logged Throttle Opening Angle (%) and AFR.

HTH


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 Post subject: Re: Next Problem to be Cracked: Tip-In (Accelerator) Enrich
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:04 am 
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Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 9:49 pm
Posts: 5659
Location: Canada eh!
Don't forget the ECU is calculating values thousands of times faster than the Logger receives values, so you may be missing the delta % change completely between two consecutive logger lines.
You will need to experiment as suggested I believe.

BTW: The Throttle Tipin difference is calculated from current TPS Angle - (TPS from the second sample in the past)


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 Post subject: Re: Next Problem to be Cracked: Tip-In (Accelerator) Enrich
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:04 pm
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA
OK, so WTF is going on in these logs?
Min throttle for tip-in is set to 1.0%

Do I have a mechanical problem?


Attachments:
romraiderlog_20130730_085802.csv [11.62 KiB]
Downloaded 110 times
romraiderlog_20130730_090040.csv [4.01 KiB]
Downloaded 92 times

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 Post subject: Re: Next Problem to be Cracked: Tip-In (Accelerator) Enrich
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:43 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:00 pm
Posts: 1321
Location: Bama, 02 wrx, stroked ej22t, pt5857, ppg, E85 (fear the ear) fastblueufo@yahoo.com
Looks like your adding to much ipw for tip in. Your afr shouldnt drop a whole point. It also overcorrected because what looks like around a 10% error in tip in values.

If you were using cobb there is a multiplier value that basically slows down the correction rate by smoothing calculated ipw or maybe load. If its load it prol wont help but if its ipw smoothing it may slow the rate of corrections enough that it doesnt over compensate. Ill dig through a cobb rom later and find the table im talking about.

on the first log, is there an iat comp or other comp changing any fueling corrections? Timing or avcs changes going on near the end of the log?


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 Post subject: Re: Next Problem to be Cracked: Tip-In (Accelerator) Enrich
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:17 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:04 pm
Posts: 2140
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
2.0L WRX no AVCS. cut stock injectors. SD.

1st log. Nope. Everything is as steady-state constant as can be. Dead steady TPS, MAP, and RPM. Even the IPW is pretty steady then it suddenly drops on its own in response to the AF correction.

2nd log. Look at the dTPS... It's 0.6% that's less than the 1.0% set in the ROM. It shouldn't even be going through the tip-in logic...

Access to that table of smoothing calculated IPW would kick major ass! would help a lot especially as injector size is doubled...

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- Original E36 USDM M3 MS41.2 ECU Editor Definitions
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Donations Appreciated : http://www.paypal.me/AbhishekShinde


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 Post subject: Re: Next Problem to be Cracked: Tip-In (Accelerator) Enrich
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:23 pm 
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Location: Bama, 02 wrx, stroked ej22t, pt5857, ppg, E85 (fear the ear) fastblueufo@yahoo.com
I looked and its an engine load smoothing multiplier value. Not ipw. Doubt that would help you at all.
I bet its just from the cut tips not spraying in a uniform pattern. You have fuel pump pressure waves and what not which can cause the spray pattern at the cut tip to change. This would cause the tau affect to change dynamically just from a fluctuating spray pattern at the injector tip. I really dont know though for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Next Problem to be Cracked: Tip-In (Accelerator) Enrich
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:44 pm 
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Yeah, that's my thought as well. I think that plus my 272 cams is doing some weird stuff. Oddly enough, I didn't have these issues years ago since I've been running these injectors since 2006 on the stock cams. Or maybe they're just dirty? Haven't changed the fuel filter in 3 or 4 years. I guess I can try that now.

Hopefully it's just the injectors sucking which is an easy fix as I have some ID1000s to go in.

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 Post subject: Re: Next Problem to be Cracked: Tip-In (Accelerator) Enrich
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:28 am 
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Posts: 31
I am trying to sort out some minor lean conditions encountered while cruising. pe800s with PE latency values, scaled to 763 according to romraider tool. I got the afrs pretty much spot on, and everything is great minus 1 knock count here and there. I started noticing it with my LC-1 afrs integrating vs. my turboxs tuner pro and eyeballing it. I am protuned. Here is my question. I am seeing afrs jump to 15-16 while cruising if I slightly apply throttle pressure. It goes away within 600 rpm or less. Ill upload a small log, but for my TIECBE, its showing -50% -50% 0 0 0 0 0 0. This is stock settings correct? I'll log my tip in stuff, but so I have some knowledge when I do, what is going on? I read this thread, but I still cant figure out which way to go with the value changes. Is this table meaning that at almost no boost error, the injectors are firing what exactly? a percentage of the values in the TIE Table right? The car is physically reacting to the lean conditions (can be felt), so I dont think this is error at the Wideband sensor. Should I add more enrichment on the enrichment table, or change the boost error comp to a higher value, of say -25%. Does this Boost error table just go from -100% to 0%? I dont read code, as Im sure its right in front of me, I just dont see it.
Attachment:
tipin.jpg
tipin.jpg [ 137.79 KiB | Viewed 1712 times ]


Attachments:
romraiderlog_20130810_184451.csv [8.39 KiB]
Downloaded 65 times
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 Post subject: Re: Next Problem to be Cracked: Tip-In (Accelerator) Enrich
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:39 pm 
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Posts: 284
Location: Northborough, MA
Hey guys, starting to look at tip-in now to finalize my '11 STI stage 2 ROM. I read the thread and there's some good info here. While driving and contemplating my strategy, something else occurred to me. Since tip-in is really intended to compensate for the air rush when the throttle moves, shouldn't there be some kind of IAT compensation for this? The main tip-in table essentially describes additional IPW, which is static regardless of the conditions. What I am thinking is that as IATs change, so does the density and therefore the tip-in IPW should also be adjusted. If there is no IAT compensation for this, than IMO this needs to be acknowledged as a potential factor in your long term tuning. For example, once I get my tables working right in 70F weather, what happens when I hit 20F in January? It seems that the settings that I dial in will not yield the same results anymore, given that I will be getting much more oxygen, when compared to the same throttle change back when air was warmer and thinner.

Thoughts?

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