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 Post subject: Wideband VOUT logging via TGV position sensor input
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:16 am 
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Hello fellow romraiders! I have a diy WB02 kit that a purchased from 14point7.com a few years back that has 2 voltage outputs that can be scaled to your liking. The only problem is I cannot exactly match up the time stamps on the wb02's log to my romraider logs for obvious reasons. This got me thinking a few nights ago about the different inputs that can be logged via the factory ecu with the romraider logger.

In an ideal world the factory ecu would use a voltage output from the factory front 02 sensor so you could easily replace it with a aftermarket unit that mimics it's voltage output based on AFR or lambda. But as we know the ecu measures the mA output to of the sensor to figure out AFR. This in turn makes replacing the stock sensor with a aftermarket unit impossible. Most people that are running modded subies that I know have removed their TGVs which brings up an interesting point. The factory TGV angle sensors, to my knowledge, use a +5v reference to figure out the angle of the TGVs much like the factory TPS does. So in theory if your TGVs are removed you now have 2 open +5v inputs into the ecu that can be logged via romraider!

Now I have yet to test my theory, but could anyone see this causing a problem? I am not sure of the logic behind the TGV fix in romraider.. is it just to curb a CEL and codes? If someone could enlighten me that would be fantastic. My guess is that the ecu uses the angle sensors in a closed loop fashion to figure out the correct duty cycle for the TGV solenoids. Is a sweeping 0-5v afr signal going to make the ecu try and compensate for something because it now thinks the TGVs are moving all over the place? I figure the worst that could happen is I cook the ecu by applying too much voltage or something along those lines (which would suck!). But as long as the wb02 doesn't output more then 5v I really don't see it being a problem. Looking over the wiring diagrams from a MY02 WRX it looks like B13 (left) and B23 (right) are the 2 separate inputs at the ecu.

Should I try it and see what happens? I am rather nervous seeing as how I can't afford another ecu if I cook it. I might wire up a potentiometer from the B9 5v reference that powers the TPS and the TGV angle sensors just to see what happens and if I can actually log a change in voltage via romraider. If everything works and I can in fact log my wb02's output voltage I would then have to make some type of spreadsheet to turn those voltage perimeters into usable AFR. I could see this being just as effective as using a Innovate or AEM wb02 just without having to have another cable plugged into my laptop.

Any feedback would be great! Thanks again to the community for making all of this open source subie tuning possible! :twisted:
-Lucas

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02 WRB WRX:High Compression EJ22, Billet 20g, E85, 15psi, 12.37 @109
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 Post subject: Re: Wideband VOUT logging via TGV position sensor input
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:43 am 
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Location: Saratov, Russia
If you disconnect TGV solenoids you will not be able to fry those solenoids and anything inside your ecu.


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 Post subject: Re: Wideband VOUT logging via TGV position sensor input
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:17 am 
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It is not disconnecting the solenoids I am worried about. It's the fact that I will be giving the ecu a varying 0-5v signal from an external source. I really don't see too much harm coming from me doing this. I think I may just be a little paranoid :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Wideband VOUT logging via TGV position sensor input
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:41 am 
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Location: Saratov, Russia
External 0-5V could not be dangerous for your ecu inputs.

Your ecu routinely sees those marginal values when power or ground wire of TGV sensor is broken\disconnected.


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 Post subject: Re: Wideband VOUT logging via TGV position sensor input
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:52 am 
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Location: Canada eh!
sideout909 wrote:
I have a diy WB02 kit that a purchased from 14point7.com a few years back

Which version exactly are you using (link)?
The NAW_7S is supported now but I know it has a slightly different query response protocol than some of the other units Alan makes.


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 Post subject: Re: Wideband VOUT logging via TGV position sensor input
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:54 pm 
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I have a JAW 1.041. I think I may try this today. I will post my results to let everyone know how it goes :mrgreen:

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Running CarBerry ROM ver. 3.6.5
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 Post subject: Re: Wideband VOUT logging via TGV position sensor input
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:17 pm 
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I can only confirm that attaching a pot to a TGV connector works like you'd expect...

Image

I think the odds are very good that you plan will work, but it would be good to confirm that there is no voltage between the WBO2 ground and the ground you find on that connector. Ditto for the 5v lines.

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 Post subject: Re: Wideband VOUT logging via TGV position sensor input
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:03 am 
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I am not sure what Alan to used as a spec for his vout's on the jaw's... It may be a higher ma rating may not...

I myself wouldn't hesitate to try an lc1 on the input since I know the outputs on it are extremely sensitive and will blow before anything else (tiny touch to ground and fried output)... It has an extremely low current rating, on the logic scale.

As for the jaw, if the ecu input senses up to 5v, I don't see why it can't be done, because it's reading voltage amount, not current :)

The potentiometer has a high potential current depending on draw from the input circuit. So I myself would try if it were my car.

Another tip is hook a reference up to the jaw (it has aux inputs) that is a voltage readout: tps, etc.. (not familiar with subie hardware yet) so you can have an identical set of values in a given timeframe to line up the datalogs. On my Honda, I would use the map sensor.... At that point, a spreadsheet to populate a graph or table would streamline the process. Food for thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Wideband VOUT logging via TGV position sensor input
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:10 am 
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It works :twisted: I am working out the details of the spreadsheet to change the voltage to usable AFR. I'll post up a log tomorrow :mrgreen:

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02 WRB WRX:High Compression EJ22, Billet 20g, E85, 15psi, 12.37 @109
Running CarBerry ROM ver. 3.6.5
Click to see the CarBerryROM in action!


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 Post subject: Re: Wideband VOUT logging via TGV position sensor input
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:43 am 
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Right on!

If it's a simple y=mx+b relationship, you can probably teach the logger to output AFR numbers directly...

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2005 Legacy GT w/ ATP 3076, IWG, MBC, BCS, BC 272, LC, FFS, OMG
Please don't send me tuning questions via PM - use the forums instead. Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Wideband VOUT logging via TGV position sensor input
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:17 am 
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Location: Canada eh!
NSFW wrote:
If it's a simple y=mx+b relationship

Yes, just look at the documention in the JAW Deploy folder on your computer. I think the volt to AFR is in there.


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 Post subject: Re: Wideband VOUT logging via TGV position sensor input
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:43 pm 
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Quick update: So I found out that the ecu rounds the voltage input to .02v so I am losing a bit of accuracy. Alright now I am trying to figure out how to make the logger output the AFR value. I have my JAW setup to output volts to afr as follows:
Code:
AFR Lambda Volts
16.23   1.1   5
15.94   1.08   4.99
15.65   1.06   4.76
15.37   1.05   4.54
15.1   1.03   4.32
14.7   1   4
14.68   1   3.98
14.53   0.99   3.86
14.38   0.98   3.74
14.24   0.97   3.63
14.1   0.96   3.52
13.97   0.95   3.42
13.84   0.94   3.31
13.71   0.93   3.21
13.59   0.92   3.11
13.47   0.92   3.02
13.35   0.91   2.92
13.23   0.9   2.82
13.12   0.89   2.74
13.01   0.89   2.65
12.91   0.88   2.57
12.8   0.87   2.48
12.7   0.86   2.4
12.6   0.86   2.32
12.51   0.85   2.25
12.41   0.84   2.17
12.32   0.84   2.1
12.23   0.83   2.02
12.14   0.83   1.95
12.05   0.82   1.88
11.96   0.81   1.81
11.88   0.81   1.74
11.8   0.8   1.68
11.72   0.8   1.62
11.64   0.79   1.55
11.56   0.79   1.49
11.48   0.78   1.42
11.4   0.78   1.36
11.32   0.77   1.3
11.25   0.77   1.24
11.17   0.76   1.18
11.1   0.75   1.12
11.02   0.75   1.06
10.95   0.74   1
10.87   0.74   0.94
10.8   0.73   0.88
10.72   0.73   0.82
10.64   0.72   0.75
10.57   0.72   0.7
10.49   0.71   0.63
10.42   0.71   0.58
10.34   0.7   0.51
10.26   0.7   0.45
10.18   0.69   0.38

I got these figures by putting 14.7 @ 4v and using 0.8v/AFR in JAW Edit to give me good resolution with the factory ecu. Now how to I use these values to get the logger to see afr? using y=mx+b it seems it should be something like y=0.8(x/50)+0.38 correct? The x/50 came from the logger xml. It seems it divides the raw ecu value by 50 to output the voltage value. And 0.38 is the lowest voltage that the wideband outputs. BTW math was never my favorite subject so bear with me :roll:

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02 WRB WRX:High Compression EJ22, Billet 20g, E85, 15psi, 12.37 @109
Running CarBerry ROM ver. 3.6.5
Click to see the CarBerryROM in action!


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 Post subject: Re: Wideband VOUT logging via TGV position sensor input
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:09 pm 
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I believe the formula is right, but maybe not; if you wanted to make it ironically simple- it comes set from the factory to be able to put out voltage that is a direct correlation to afr. I.e. 14.7 afr == 1.47v

Now, using this type of input on the ecu; voltage offset seriously screws you 90% of the time. Make sure you have the jaw/naw controller as close to the ecu as possible, and with extra grounds to the sensor ground in the ecu, as well as main ground into the ecu... This makes offsets minimal if at all. Also insulating the output from the wide and all the way to the ecu helps as well.

Http://forum.pgmfi.org . You should be able to find the slope calculations for the voltage scale on the forums there, I know it is used in freelog (available there) as well... I wish I had the formulas memorized :/


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 Post subject: Re: Wideband VOUT logging via TGV position sensor input
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:30 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 9:49 pm
Posts: 5659
Location: Canada eh!
In Excel you can plot the AFR over volts. Then add a trendline and set the option to show the formula on the graph.
Using the default settings in JAW Deploy I get: AFR = 2 X volts + 10
The results I got for your data is: AFR = 1.2505 X volts + 9.6985
as show in this graph
Attachment:
afr-volts.png

Now in the logger.xml def file you need to change the formula for calculating the ECU data for the Tumble Valve Sensor you are using.
Code:
<parameter id="P39" name="Tumble Valve Position Sensor Right" desc="" ecubyteindex="12" ecubit="0">
  <address>0x000033</address>
  <conversions>
    <conversion units="AFR" expr="x/50*1.2505+9.6985" format="0.00" />
  </conversions>
</parameter>

The ECU spits out a single byte between 0 and 255 so the x/50 converts the byte to volts. That's the value you need for your formula. You could also refine it to "x*0.02501+9.6985".


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 Post subject: Re: Wideband VOUT logging via TGV position sensor input
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:35 am 
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Posts: 2428
<burns>Excellent.</burns>

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Please don't send me tuning questions via PM - use the forums instead. Thanks!


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