RomRaider Logo

RomRaider

Open Source ECU Tools
 FAQ •  Register •  Login 

RomRaider

Documentation

Community

Developers

It is currently Sun Sep 25, 2022 3:53 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: 05-09 5EAT Subaru Reverse Engineering
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:12 pm 
Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:27 pm
Posts: 2002
Location: Northern NSW
There is so much more to it then just increasing RT values... Acc pedal + throttle tables columns/rows etc are all changed to time a perfect shift. Even cruise control improves as well for stable cruise speeds plus stays in gears longer without kicking back or shifting up but if it does shift, you would be hard picked to feel it except seeing the tacho move..

FYI: My values are not stupidly high and I know how to do a TCU RAM dump :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 05-09 5EAT Subaru Reverse Engineering
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:02 pm 
Offline
Newbie

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:41 pm
Posts: 11
yes we can do "ram dump" also using free ssm.

but are you keeping this info for resale value or drip feeding it to us?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 05-09 5EAT Subaru Reverse Engineering
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:00 am 
Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:27 pm
Posts: 2002
Location: Northern NSW
frank_ster wrote:
yes we can do "ram dump" also using free ssm.

but are you keeping this info for resale value or drip feeding it to us?


I will post a public version but how many millions of hours do you think tuners/users across the world have put into this with minimal success? It is obviously worth something to promote this much interest! Even using the publicly available one for the hours you could invest in attempting it yourself would be a worthwhile, so I figure if you use the public version then even a $10 donation to the RomRaider forum would save you/tuners hours of time playing with it :)

RAM dump of the TCU and DBW tables can show you the values you want.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 05-09 5EAT Subaru Reverse Engineering
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:58 am 
Offline
Newbie

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:41 pm
Posts: 11
and we thank you for your work ! i would be happy to make a donation.


I have some solutions to make the 5 eat physically stronger as well.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 05-09 5EAT Subaru Reverse Engineering
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:20 pm 
Offline
Newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:15 pm
Posts: 1
ANAR WANTS THIS PLEASE....

What does increadibly talented tuner man need from Anar?! lol


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 05-09 5EAT Subaru Reverse Engineering
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:44 pm 
Offline
Newbie

Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 10:05 pm
Posts: 1
Can these changes can be applied to an accessport v1 (even if not by you)? Or perhaps AP v2? If you could explain to my tuner how to apply these updates to AP tables, I'd gladly pay $10-50, if the changes are as good as others have said..

I've thought about going OS, but I don't know of any tuners near me that use OS, and the remote ones want me to install a WB02, etc, which is way more work than I have time for.
(05 LGT 5EAT, evo16g, 650cc injector, gutted stock pipes, walbro)

HV


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 05-09 5EAT Subaru Reverse Engineering
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:41 am 
Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:27 pm
Posts: 2002
Location: Northern NSW
I have been away tuning for 10 days straight so my apologies for not replying earlier :)

Will reply to PM's shortly :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 05-09 5EAT Subaru Reverse Engineering
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:24 pm 
Offline
Newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:20 pm
Posts: 1
throttlehappy, as you can tell, youve generated interest on the legacygt forums.

id be interested in a map for an 05, but i only have accessport v2.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 05-09 5EAT Subaru Reverse Engineering
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:48 am 
Offline
Newbie

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:16 am
Posts: 4
throttlehappy wrote:
I have been away tuning for 10 days straight so my apologies for not replying earlier :)

Will reply to PM's shortly :)


This makes it sound like he's talking crap but throttle happy is honestly a machine tuner. I recently drove a AUDM 04 Liberty (Legacy) 5EAT tuned by him and it is unbelievable!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 05-09 5EAT Subaru Reverse Engineering
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:58 am 
Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:27 pm
Posts: 2002
Location: Northern NSW
So we all know that the 5EAT gearbox is not quite as strong as it should be, with boxes slipping on spool and resulting in the transmission grabbing after peak engine torque occurs. Being an electronic device, it can function quite well when fed the right signals though!

The Auto Transmission as I have proven to quite a few 5EAT owners is controllable by the engine ECU, with the transmission computer being fed the right signals from the accelerator pedal via a Requested Torque value ;)

This is the Target Boost Table which is probably the most crucial element
Attachment:
5EAT_Target_Boost.png

Factory on the Left, middle shows a Tuned car and the right hand side is one of mine

The major difference you will notice is that the middle graph has essentially added boost from 2400rpm to 5200rpm in the 310+ Requested Torque Columns which makes boost come on both earlier on the accelerator pedal movement but also at a low rpm, with the tune then having a smaller boost increase above 5200rpm. The fueling and timing was then tuned to allow the engine to make more engine torque... unfortunately, the Transmission has no way of knowing you are making more... so the result is that above 2400rpm, the transmission is not applying enough line pressure to account for a specific engine torque increase so keeps the same line pressure, not to mention leaner mixtures means that your making more torque so it allows the transmission to slip. Once peak torque occurs though, the transmission is able to take the stored energy and bump up the peak power output as the transmission catches up.
The issue also then comes into the sudden ramp up in boost from 280 to 310RT, this 'light switch' power delivery may feel impresive but is not exactly mechanically sympathetic!

So how is the 5EAT 'fixed' if you want more power... you will notice at 2400rpm and 310 Requested Torque, the stock tune asks for 11.2psi, the tuned car asks for 13.79psi but in my tune I am asking for 6.5psi boost :shock: Reasoning is, that with optimised fuel and timing, the engine made similar torque to stock so the equivalent transmission line pressure despite less boost means optimal lockup. I actually have 20% more line pressure being requested with a value of 420 to get similar boost values, which is where the transmission is able to maintain gear ratio lock up with adequate line pressure ;)
To put this into perspective, the Automatic MY10+ Liberty GT has a Target Boost 350 column requesting a peak of 12.38psi boost but the accelerator pedal asks for a value of 390 to let the transmission lock up better(Subaru had learnt a thing or two by then although it is not perfect!)

The give away signs of transmission slip(and pending gearbox rebuild) is engine rpm being higher at a specific road speed than it should be. If you are doing 2000rpm in 3rd at 50kph, 3000rpm at 75kph, 4000rpm at 100kph and 6000rpm at 150kph, then the car should be relatively issue free. With a turbo upgrade, the transmission slip is usually more obvious and results in higher peak power figures after peak torque but also higher rpm values at low road speeds than a stock turbo.

Dynos without a seperate RPM and roller speed to compare how much slip is occuring are by far the worst offender, as they use either engine rpm or roller speed, with no overlay of the two values to ensure there is no transmission slip as per this article: http://www.airboytuning.com/archives/138 which also shows how derived dyno engine torque is artificially bumped up on any dyno if there is transmission slip.
I know of 3 tuned 5EAT's that had/needed rebuilds within a year of their tune. One was instantly aware of the issue when he knew he could tow a small camper caravan pre-tune at low rpm sitting on 80kph but was sitting above 4000rpm in 4th gear post-tune the weekend after the tune... after the gearbox was replaced, I was asked to retune the car and the difference was immediate ;) It made less power on the same dyno but with more low rpm torque reaching the wheels so was consistently a full second quicker to 100kph than its previous tune. This also allows the gearbox to shift smoother but also kickdown into the right gear as it knows how much engine torque to expect from the car ;)

Of course, this also applies to the H6 5EAT and even the 2.5L 4EAT's, albeit the 4EAT is a bit more resilient! I am currently retuning a Raptor Supercharged 4EAT 2.5i Liberty which only has a DBW fix applied... no more transmission slip and we even raised the transmission shift point!
This can also be shown in in another car, where just the initial DBW settings provided to sample the difference from the owners dyno tune made a massive improvement to driveability and transmission line pressure lockup resulting in firmer, positive shifts by having more Requested Torque at lower throttle angles.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 05-09 5EAT Subaru Reverse Engineering
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:39 pm 
Offline
Newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:34 pm
Posts: 2
throttlehappy wrote:
So we all know that the 5EAT gearbox is not quite as strong as it should be, with boxes slipping on spool and resulting in the transmission grabbing after peak engine torque occurs. Being an electronic device, it can function quite well when fed the right signals though!

The Auto Transmission as I have proven to quite a few 5EAT owners is controllable by the engine ECU, with the transmission computer being fed the right signals from the accelerator pedal via a Requested Torque value ;)

This is the Target Boost Table which is probably the most crucial element
Attachment:
5EAT_Target_Boost.png

Factory on the Left, middle shows a Tuned car and the right hand side is one of mine

The major difference you will notice is that the middle graph has essentially added boost from 2400rpm to 5200rpm in the 310+ Requested Torque Columns which makes boost come on both earlier on the accelerator pedal movement but also at a low rpm, with the tune then having a smaller boost increase above 5200rpm. The fueling and timing was then tuned to allow the engine to make more engine torque... unfortunately, the Transmission has no way of knowing you are making more... so the result is that above 2400rpm, the transmission is not applying enough line pressure to account for a specific engine torque increase so keeps the same line pressure, not to mention leaner mixtures means that your making more torque so it allows the transmission to slip. Once peak torque occurs though, the transmission is able to take the stored energy and bump up the peak power output as the transmission catches up.
The issue also then comes into the sudden ramp up in boost from 280 to 310RT, this 'light switch' power delivery may feel impresive but is not exactly mechanically sympathetic!

So how is the 5EAT 'fixed' if you want more power... you will notice at 2400rpm and 310 Requested Torque, the stock tune asks for 11.2psi, the tuned car asks for 13.79psi but in my tune I am asking for 6.5psi boost :shock: Reasoning is, that with optimised fuel and timing, the engine made similar torque to stock so the equivalent transmission line pressure despite less boost means optimal lockup. I actually have 20% more line pressure being requested with a value of 420 to get similar boost values, which is where the transmission is able to maintain gear ratio lock up with adequate line pressure ;)
To put this into perspective, the Automatic MY10+ Liberty GT has a Target Boost 350 column requesting a peak of 12.38psi boost but the accelerator pedal asks for a value of 390 to let the transmission lock up better(Subaru had learnt a thing or two by then although it is not perfect!)

The give away signs of transmission slip(and pending gearbox rebuild) is engine rpm being higher at a specific road speed than it should be. If you are doing 2000rpm in 3rd at 50kph, 3000rpm at 75kph, 4000rpm at 100kph and 6000rpm at 150kph, then the car should be relatively issue free. With a turbo upgrade, the transmission slip is usually more obvious and results in higher peak power figures after peak torque but also higher rpm values at low road speeds than a stock turbo.

Dynos without a seperate RPM and roller speed to compare how much slip is occuring are by far the worst offender, as they use either engine rpm or roller speed, with no overlay of the two values to ensure there is no transmission slip as per this article: http://www.airboytuning.com/archives/138 which also shows how derived dyno engine torque is artificially bumped up on any dyno if there is transmission slip.
I know of 3 tuned 5EAT's that had/needed rebuilds within a year of their tune. One was instantly aware of the issue when he knew he could tow a small camper caravan pre-tune at low rpm sitting on 80kph but was sitting above 4000rpm in 4th gear post-tune the weekend after the tune... after the gearbox was replaced, I was asked to retune the car and the difference was immediate ;) It made less power on the same dyno but with more low rpm torque reaching the wheels so was consistently a full second quicker to 100kph than its previous tune. This also allows the gearbox to shift smoother but also kickdown into the right gear as it knows how much engine torque to expect from the car ;)

Of course, this also applies to the H6 5EAT and even the 2.5L 4EAT's, albeit the 4EAT is a bit more resilient! I am currently retuning a Raptor Supercharged 4EAT 2.5i Liberty which only has a DBW fix applied... no more transmission slip and we even raised the transmission shift point!
This can also be shown in in another car, where just the initial DBW settings provided to sample the difference from the owners dyno tune made a massive improvement to driveability and transmission line pressure lockup resulting in firmer, positive shifts by having more Requested Torque at lower throttle angles.


I could see how that could improve 07+ 5EAT's. However, 05-06 boost targets are based on throttle angle. So this must be accomplished through altering the requested torque and throttle table/limits?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 05-09 5EAT Subaru Reverse Engineering
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:01 am 
Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:27 pm
Posts: 2002
Location: Northern NSW
tuningalliance wrote:
throttlehappy wrote:
So we all know that the 5EAT gearbox is not quite as strong as it should be, with boxes slipping on spool and resulting in the transmission grabbing after peak engine torque occurs. Being an electronic device, it can function quite well when fed the right signals though!

The Auto Transmission as I have proven to quite a few 5EAT owners is controllable by the engine ECU, with the transmission computer being fed the right signals from the accelerator pedal via a Requested Torque value ;)

This is the Target Boost Table which is probably the most crucial element
Attachment:
5EAT_Target_Boost.png

Factory on the Left, middle shows a Tuned car and the right hand side is one of mine

The major difference you will notice is that the middle graph has essentially added boost from 2400rpm to 5200rpm in the 310+ Requested Torque Columns which makes boost come on both earlier on the accelerator pedal movement but also at a low rpm, with the tune then having a smaller boost increase above 5200rpm. The fueling and timing was then tuned to allow the engine to make more engine torque... unfortunately, the Transmission has no way of knowing you are making more... so the result is that above 2400rpm, the transmission is not applying enough line pressure to account for a specific engine torque increase so keeps the same line pressure, not to mention leaner mixtures means that your making more torque so it allows the transmission to slip. Once peak torque occurs though, the transmission is able to take the stored energy and bump up the peak power output as the transmission catches up.
The issue also then comes into the sudden ramp up in boost from 280 to 310RT, this 'light switch' power delivery may feel impresive but is not exactly mechanically sympathetic!

So how is the 5EAT 'fixed' if you want more power... you will notice at 2400rpm and 310 Requested Torque, the stock tune asks for 11.2psi, the tuned car asks for 13.79psi but in my tune I am asking for 6.5psi boost :shock: Reasoning is, that with optimised fuel and timing, the engine made similar torque to stock so the equivalent transmission line pressure despite less boost means optimal lockup. I actually have 20% more line pressure being requested with a value of 420 to get similar boost values, which is where the transmission is able to maintain gear ratio lock up with adequate line pressure ;)
To put this into perspective, the Automatic MY10+ Liberty GT has a Target Boost 350 column requesting a peak of 12.38psi boost but the accelerator pedal asks for a value of 390 to let the transmission lock up better(Subaru had learnt a thing or two by then although it is not perfect!)

The give away signs of transmission slip(and pending gearbox rebuild) is engine rpm being higher at a specific road speed than it should be. If you are doing 2000rpm in 3rd at 50kph, 3000rpm at 75kph, 4000rpm at 100kph and 6000rpm at 150kph, then the car should be relatively issue free. With a turbo upgrade, the transmission slip is usually more obvious and results in higher peak power figures after peak torque but also higher rpm values at low road speeds than a stock turbo.

Dynos without a seperate RPM and roller speed to compare how much slip is occuring are by far the worst offender, as they use either engine rpm or roller speed, with no overlay of the two values to ensure there is no transmission slip as per this article: http://www.airboytuning.com/archives/138 which also shows how derived dyno engine torque is artificially bumped up on any dyno if there is transmission slip.
I know of 3 tuned 5EAT's that had/needed rebuilds within a year of their tune. One was instantly aware of the issue when he knew he could tow a small camper caravan pre-tune at low rpm sitting on 80kph but was sitting above 4000rpm in 4th gear post-tune the weekend after the tune... after the gearbox was replaced, I was asked to retune the car and the difference was immediate ;) It made less power on the same dyno but with more low rpm torque reaching the wheels so was consistently a full second quicker to 100kph than its previous tune. This also allows the gearbox to shift smoother but also kickdown into the right gear as it knows how much engine torque to expect from the car ;)

Of course, this also applies to the H6 5EAT and even the 2.5L 4EAT's, albeit the 4EAT is a bit more resilient! I am currently retuning a Raptor Supercharged 4EAT 2.5i Liberty which only has a DBW fix applied... no more transmission slip and we even raised the transmission shift point!
This can also be shown in in another car, where just the initial DBW settings provided to sample the difference from the owners dyno tune made a massive improvement to driveability and transmission line pressure lockup resulting in firmer, positive shifts by having more Requested Torque at lower throttle angles.


I could see how that could improve 07+ 5EAT's. However, 05-06 boost targets are based on throttle angle. So this must be accomplished through altering the requested torque and throttle table/limits?


Correct.
The earlier ECU is similar tuning methodology but it takes much longer to write something since there is more variables and in Australia/UK/Japan etc we got the Dual AVCS 2.0L for the earlier LGT. Locally, we have auto 16 bit WRX's/FXT and I can even get them shifting right via Target Boost and there is no RT with the 16 bit ECU. I even recently tuned an 01 OB H6 3.0L and got the box shifting right :)

I retuned 'laffoutloud' via bmx045, I am sure he can attest to how well the earlier USDM 2.5L 5EAT can shift with just a few tables tweaked!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 05-09 5EAT Subaru Reverse Engineering
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:50 pm 
Offline
Newbie

Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:37 am
Posts: 75
So, on 02 4EAT with shift kit, am I to assume to push around boost targets to make it respond?
How is 4EAT power mode is affected?
I am trying to make power with less timing, more fuel and more boost. Just a preference.
Thank you!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Style based on FI Subsilver by phpBBservice.nl